45 SE

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Cressy Snr
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#151 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

Interesting. Thanks for that. :)
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#152 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

Rolled a few different tubes today (the switch was very useful) and have settled on a lovely NOS Philips Miniwatt PCC88 as a driver. It was a toss up between the 1981 Soviet Reflektor 6N23P-EV, the GEC A2900 (12AT7 type) and the Philips PCC88. The Philips had a slightly fatter tone and was more extended up top in comparison to the other two, so I went with that one.
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#153 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

Well today, I have mostly been listening to music from the acoustic and early electric recording periods, namely Caruso (acoustic) Louis Armstrong and his Hot Five, and The Fletcher Henderson Orchestra (electric)
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Great music, made wonderful by the 45 amplifier.
There’s no bass, no treble, no stereo, just these long since passed performers singing and playing across a century and into the living room. The emotion of Caruso’s performances into the recording horn, and the sheer joie de vivre coming from Armstrong and Henderson is real ‘hairs on the back of the neck stuff. Fantastic!

Can nine pin 1960s valves and 1930s 45s make music together? Sure they can!

Interestingly, Jeff Day is reporting on some kind of ‘All Music’ philosophy beginning to gain traction amongst a few high end manufacturers. https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.co ... ity-audio/

Listen Jeff, I’m right with you on this. I’ve been at it for years and am only just beginning to succeed. A system that can deal with all music from every era, right from acoustic through to digital recording and allow non-wince, non-cringe, access to it all, without fuss or favour AND in high fidelity, is something extraordinarily difficult to build, but worth striving for, and if some members of the high end manufacturing fraternity are actually starting to get it, then it’s certainly not before time.
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Nick
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#154 Re: 45 SE

Post by Nick »

If, for example, an audio equipment design is optimized to play back only the best recordings from the magnetic recording era, it shouldn’t be too surprising that particular equipment will crash and burn when playing back recordings from the acoustic and electrical eras of recording.
Well it supprises me. Though I guess if it wasn't true then what follows would all just be an excuse for some marketing. The previous examples of bikes and motorcycle imho are false equivalents.

I agree with you Steve and good kit should do it all but it can and does as you have found.
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#155 Re: 45 SE

Post by Nick »

Just to add to that so I don't come over as grumpy. The problem that "all music" is trying to fix is IHMO one that was solved 20-40 years ago. It just takes good design and in the case of loudspeakers enough money on the cabinet and drivers. The problem comes when either at the lower end, there is not enough profit to do it properly, so corners get cut, but its worst at the high end. The goal of a high end manufacturer is not to make the best sound possible, its to sell their kit for as much as possible. To play all music the system needs to be neutral. But being neutral means that its hard to stand out, so the idea was created that only the best recordings can be used, and then the makers of the kit break the system in controlled and intentional ways that makes those good recordings sound more "impressive" they stand out from the crowd, and so sell. That's why they won't play less well recorded music, because they are intentionally broken. You hear the extreme of that at Munich, where only half the rooms are playing what most would call music (and I think I have a wide range of sounds that I am happy to call music), the rests seem to play abstract drum recordings that are only there to show the mutant qualities of the kit. Play a normal recording and it sounds crap, and you are told "ahh its just not a good enough recording".
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Ray P
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#156 Re: 45 SE

Post by Ray P »

Nick wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:33 pm Well it supprises me. Though I guess if it wasn't true then what follows would all just be an excuse for some marketing. The previous examples of bikes and motorcycle imho are false equivalents.
IMO, at least for his cycling example he's talking bollocks anyway, reinforced by the the picture of his all-road bike telling me he doesn't even know how to set it up properly. With cycling it's simple, if you want to, say, tour on the road and do downhill mountain-biking, get two bikes (at least!).
Last edited by Ray P on Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#157 Re: 45 SE

Post by IslandPink »

Nicely put, Nick. I will also say that trying get extra efficiency in the speakers is an easy potential cause of losing the ability to play all music, however Steve seems to have hit on a pretty good solution there with his speakers and the tweaks he's used.
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#158 Re: 45 SE

Post by Ray P »

It'll be nice to hear where Steve has arrived - one day!
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#159 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

Nick wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 7:11 pm …The problem that "all music" is trying to fix is IHMO one that was solved 20-40 years ago. It just takes good design and in the case of loudspeakers enough money on the cabinet and drivers. The problem comes when either at the lower end, there is not enough profit to do it properly, so corners get cut, but its worst at the high end. The goal of a high end manufacturer is not to make the best sound possible, its to sell their kit for as much as possible. To play all music the system needs to be neutral. But being neutral means that its hard to stand out, so the idea was created that only the best recordings can be used , and then the makers of the kit break the system in controlled and intentional ways that makes those good recordings sound more "impressive" they stand out from the crowd, and so sell. That's why they won't play less well recorded music, because they are intentionally broken. You hear the extreme of that at Munich, where only half the rooms are playing what most would call music (and I think I have a wide range of sounds that I am happy to call music), the rests seem to play abstract drum recordings that are only there to show the mutant qualities of the kit. Play a normal recording and it sounds crap, and you are told "ahh its just not a good enough recording".
I think you’re spot-on Nick.
IME ‘neutral’ became anathema in the early 1980s: becoming rapidly associated with ‘the pipe and slippers brigade.’ Excitement was being promoted by most of the magazines around at the time apart from HFNRR, which is what your grandad read. ‘Popular Hi-Fi’ was the IMO worst offender, closely followed by HiFi Answers.
It all came in with ‘greed is good’ red braces and ‘loadsamoney.’ I remember HFNRR being outraged by the series of ‘Classical Music Bloody Loud’ concerts that were the thing for a short while around 1983.

Problem is, parts of the industry have never really progressed from this excitement at all costs bullshit, in fact they’re even worse now than they were then. I wouldn’t have thought that Nils Lofgren’s acoustic guitar is actually supposed to lacerate your tympanic membranes, whilst beating you with a hammer. The more grotesque a caricature of his ‘Acoustic Live’ set that comes out of a dem room the more the punter drools. It’s bollocks. Optimise a system to give ‘breathtaking reproduction of ‘Keith Don’t Go’ and you can forget the rest of your record collection, apart from the Sheffield Drum Record and that CD with a garage door being slammed, whose name escapes me for the moment. :lol:

The biggest problem for the hi-fi press, is how do you write about neutral systems? What do you say about ‘neutral’ when it is so much easier to wax lyrical about how awesome ‘slam,’ ‘attack,’ and transients that will loosen your fillings at fifty paces are? Writing about even handedness, does not make for good copy. Given the demographic that probably reads these magazines and marvels at the latest ten-ton thread drive turntable, 2000W amp and 27 driver line source speaker with twin 5KW subs. I would say that it’s about time they fecking grew up!
IslandPink wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:22 pm … I will also say that trying get extra efficiency in the speakers is an easy potential cause of losing the ability to play all music…
Aye, I would say that how efficient your speakers are is directly proportional to how difficult it is to get them to deal with a widely variable quality of source materials. That’s the ‘gotcha’ with ultra-low-power SETs and >100dB speakers isn’t it?
But it is possible. Fiendishly difficult, but possible….er….eventually, and with good valves.
Talking to Nick at Steve’s place last week, neutrality is achievable with subjectivity alone, but it takes years and a good pair ears. Then you need to know how you are going to deal electronically or acoustically with what your ears are telling you; IOW what are you going to change in the circuit/ speaker in order to deal with the problem you’ve identified? Might a little measurement help one to do this?
Ray P wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:36 am It'll be nice to hear where Steve has arrived - one day!
One can only hope we can get back to some semblance of normality at some point down the line.
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#160 Re: 45 SE

Post by Nick »

Yep, and what you need to be aware of all the time is that articles like that are just in fact more of the same marketing with a dash of 2020's mindfulness vibe added on. Like Ray said the analogy's used are telling. In reality (to show my era) no motorbike is going to do what a RC30 will do other than another track bike, likewise if you want to be off road you get a CCM or similar. The new bike Steve S has got is not trying to be both or either of those things, its trying to be the best possible solution to what someone like Steve wants, and only someone who doesn't actually understand the point of the bikes mentioned would think there was any connection (or there needed to be). Nobody makes a track that’s half perfect tarmac and half mountain descent. But that’s exactly what someone who likes music "record" collection is like.

And yes, I know KTM offers a "track pack"
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#161 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

I was in two minds about posting the link to Jeff Day's blog because of the spurious links with cycling and motorcycling. It doesn't stack up, as an analogy with an audio system. But apart from that I thought the article was fair.
I suppose "all music" will become another marketing buzzword if it ever takes hold, which I sincerely doubt it will. I like the majority of Jeff Day's writing but he could do with a good editor and he can be far too much of an Audio Note UK fanboy. I glaze over when he gets into that mode. Of course it's his blog and he's entitled to write what he likes. or cycling analogy he puts up is a red herring. For me far more telling is the comments section from another of Jeff's posts about remastering from 78 viz Nimbus' old Prima Voce series.
https://jeffsplace.positive-feedback.co ... rima-voce/

“I disagree concerning the Nimbus method remastering the 78s. Ward Marston and Mark Obert-Thorn are the finest remastering engineers today. They have remastered 1000 CDs worth of 78s in superior sound for Marston Records, Naxos, Biddulph, Romophone, Cala, and Music & Arts, etc. The 12 volume complete Caruso on Naxos was remastered by Ward Marston. Superior to the RCA set. Very superior to Nimbus. I have 50% of the Caruso 78s to compare with. The NIMBUS method of transfer involves the use of thorn needles and a giant acoustic horn on a carefully restored gramophone. How about some equalization and speed control over discs that all require it as there were no standards for Caruso recordings on 78s (or Pathe cylinders). A scientific/audiophile method of correcting the recording deficiencies result in musically superior sound and enjoyment. Nimbus recordings sound like antique phonographs playing them back *well yes* and your point is? although I think they do use some equalization after transferring.”

Why does he want the recording deficiencies corrected? They are not poor recordings that need their 'deficiencies' correcting, they are simply recordings that reflect the recording technology at the turn of the twentieth century and as such should, I feel be listened to as they were. There was no eq on acoustic recordings. It hadn't been invented. The only thing that wasn't standardised was the speed, which was often anything but 78rpm, so a bit of judicious pitch correction is needed when transferring these artefacts to tape. I would have thought Nimbus would have got that sorted.

OK the question of tone controls is another matter entirely, but if desired they can be used on the playback equipment. There is no place for them on century old historical transfers, not in my view anyway.
Last edited by Cressy Snr on Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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#162 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

The thing that made JD's article interesting for me was his use of the term all music from all eras 'in high fidelity.'
That simple phrase puts to bed all the objections from the high end brigade who would have you believe that if your system plays everything, then it can't be getting the best out of any of your recordings and is just majoring in across the board mediocrity. :banghead:
Rant over.
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#163 Re: 45 SE

Post by RhythMick »

Hi all, it's been a while since I lurked on here (work, work, work) so I've just caught up with this thread. Late to the party again.

Firstly, congrats Steve on the build and really glad to hear you're enjoying the 45s. If I recall correctly you're not too far from me (I'm in Silkstone, you're Worksop way ?). I accumulated a box full of 45s both ST and globes, I much preferred the globes but I treat them relatively gently (usually aiming around 28mA). I find them both sweet and powerful. If you're arranging a listening day after the delayed lifting of restrictions I'd be very interested and happy to bring over a selection of 45s to be listened to. I also have a new pair of the EML 45s in a box.

When I had 45s as output valves I went all DHT : 26 -> 71a -> 45. I have nothing against IDHT or Pentode, in fact I'm about to try using one (here to ask a question on a separate thread), just contributing options. Probably too much of an architectural change to move to 3 stages.

Assuming July 19th holds and the restrictions are lifted are we considering a get together ? I haven't had anyone else listening to my amp and speakers since I finished it and although the thought of moving it terrifies me I would love to bring it over.

Alternatively I would love to welcome people here and would even provide food and drink. Overnight beds available to a point. Of course I haven't checked with SWMBO yet but I'm sure she can be persuaded.
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#164 Re: 45 SE

Post by Paul Barker »

I think the Owsten venue is for sale so planned meeting not happening.

Great to have read what you’ve commented on Steve’s 45.
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#165 Re: 45 SE

Post by Cressy Snr »

RhythMick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:21 am Hi all, it's been a while since I lurked on here (work, work, work) so I've just caught up with this thread. Late to the party again.

Firstly, congrats Steve on the build and really glad to hear you're enjoying the 45s. If I recall correctly you're not too far from me (I'm in Silkstone, you're Worksop way ?). I accumulated a box full of 45s both ST and globes, I much preferred the globes but I treat them relatively gently (usually aiming around 28mA). I find them both sweet and powerful. If you're arranging a listening day after the delayed lifting of restrictions I'd be very interested and happy to bring over a selection of 45s to be listened to. I also have a new pair of the EML 45s in a box.
Hi Mick,
Yes, I’m loving the 45s.
I have 100dB single driver speakers and to be honest, I can’t see myself ever using anything else now. I missed out big style on the loan of a pair of globe 45s from Paul after the Hull meet at Steve’s on 11th June, because I forgot to take them home with me. I’m still kicking myself for being so slack. :banghead:

A session comparing my cheap 45 amplifier with your proper one would be good. Perhaps later on in the Summer I could visit your place.

Cheers.
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