NEXT DIY MEET 7/8 JUNE 2014

[chris661]

I'd quite like something early September, before the schools etc start again.
I know it throws off the 6-month trend, but getting to Owstons is getting difficult for me, and 3rd year Physics isn't going to make it any easier.

I have a few things I'd like to bring, though my stereo these days is looking more and more like a PA system, and often acts as such. Just occasionally, though, I can sit down in the lounge and play some music through it. Sounds nice enough, but there's only one DIY bit of kit in my set-up, and that's the subwoofer.

All my amps are commercial solid-state things, as are my main speakers.
I'd be happy to bring the latter to give someone with a tiny amp a go. They're ~97dB@1w, 8ohm.
The amps probably aren't worth bringing. Big transformers, big heatsinks, lots of paralleled devices and lots of power - you've all heard that sort of thing before.

Chris

[Cressy Snr]

I also like the November slot, but September and March would suit me equally well. The six month cycle is about right. I think leaving too long between meets would kill it.

[rowuk]

Fine post, rowik, but not sure it fits into the context of this thread which is much more about our localised community get to get hers and what we do at them.

Hi Greg,

I actually posted in response to your meet at Owsten. It was interesting reading about the "expectations" that were met and not met. I think that "not met" expectations can be turned into assets.

When we demonstrate speakers with the goal to impress, a couple of things need to happen. These things are tough when the space is big and the speaker is small. If the amount of woofer available is not able to at least "pressurise" the room a bit, the speaker sounds thin (in that room). If we try and get pressure by "turning it up", more negative stuff happens. This is especially true for "full range" or open back speakers that have to be more strategically placed in the room to get great results.

I have found at shows that "intimacy" generally is easier and more impressive for demonstrations unless really big speakers are involved.

Methodology also can be a very big thing to take home from such a meeting. Imagine that the speakers best suited for the space and amps best suited for the speakers were part of a public optimising demonstration? If by listening, measuring, adjusting over and over a "before"/"after" situation from OK to excellent sound were achieved, how much everyone would learn. The same would apply to setting up the source. When the reference system is good, we only know that the synergy from those assembled pieces of kit work together. After that a DAC or record deck shootout could really open eyes.

Most never have time at such a meet to really dig in. Many comments come up about sound that are opinions based on no methodology. A DAC is claimed to resolve better than another - but the speakers for the demo had no bass. What did we learn?

I just like to find out why people have preferences and have discovered that there really is little data needed to develop "opinions" and "prejudices". Regular meets could be very good in getting opportunities to try stuff without needing to get permission from the "better" half.

[Scottmoose]

One of the speakers at Owston had a pair of 18in woofers and a pair of 15in woofers per channel. Another had 15in woofers. These are decidedly 'not small' speakers, which have been there before with people who are familiar with the room. For whatever reason, the room acoustic was problematic this time, possibly due to there being less people in it than usual. The way it goes sometimes.

[rowuk]

One of the speakers at Owston had a pair of 18in woofers and a pair of 15in woofers per channel. Another had 15in woofers. These are decidedly 'not small' speakers, which have been there before with people who are familiar with the room. For whatever reason, the room acoustic was problematic this time, possibly due to there being less people in it than usual. The way it goes sometimes.

Just imagine if one of the projects would have been to get those big speakers really well positioned. The improvement 50%? 70%, 100%. That type of knowledge is what can help turn DIY into applied Audio. I have NEVER met someone who couldn't use that knowledge and profit from the methodology.

Just a suggestion for a possible focus for future meetings - not just to see what the rest is doing, but to have a central project with a lot of people involved.

[andrew Ivimey]

Lovely idea but we'd agree in the same way a sack full of cats would hug each other when being forcibly submerged!

[Paul Barker]

I completely agree with ROWUK who I thank for venturing an opinion.

The wrong part of the room with the wrong speakers you may aswell not present your stuff at all.

At the Owston when I brought by OB's which I can't use at home because of their size. They sounded great. The placement was about where Nick set up this time.

At the other end of the room, so it may be a matter of just going end to end, Steve's speakers improved. They were hopeless in the original position.

So in my mind first we have to establish a place in the venue for this speaker or that speaker to sound best.

then it occurs to me we could have our other stuff portable and briong it into that place. Whether there are two of those places or just one. (each end or the entrance end, which I suspect may be the best end).

People with boatanchors to bring them on their hostess trolleys or sack barrows. Wheel them in, connect up and away you go.

Same for your sources etc.

Instead of going round the room during the day.

Then later in the evening as usually happens more relaxed enjoyment of just one or two systems and things like phono stages get triaed out. Or like that time we had the idht competition. We used that position my speakers and just plugged our different amps in. My amp failed because of lack of power, the others all had better power for the room. But once we got to 1.5 watts we could discern quality. My amp being 0.7 watts just couldn't hack it.

But we do need to get better at this and less like a bunch of cats being thrown down a well in a sack.

possibly drawing hte curtains would help. Room treatments would help but such a big room not really possible to bring in what's required, so we would have to just make the best of what there is. More bodies covering the dance floor would help a great deal. its far too big for us to carpet, so we have to live with it. If someone had a largish rug to put down in front of each speaker somewhere between the speaker and the listening position may help.

[rowuk]

Most of the audio forums out there have limited applied audio usefulness because the context of the evaluation is not considered. If we just want unqualified comments about rolling parts, there is a whole lot to read through, but little to learn.

For instance, what is "required" for good imaging? I think that most would agree: extended bass response, freedom from early room reflections and "similar" frequency response between the speakers. How does the frequency response change on OB, BR or horn speakers when we move them? What happens to the bass response when we use a PP valve amp or SE Triode? What about when we use the 4, 8 or 16 ohm tap on the amp?

So with this one instance, how can any comment or opinion about the quality/resolution for an LDR, NOS DAC, preamp be valid if we don't know the context of the system? Do some tweeters "exaggerate" parts of the frequency response making certain DACs better suitable? (yes)

I think that meets are an opportunity to move a lot of people forward with no investment in new kit (at least at first) by presenting methodology and a common language to describe what we hear.

In this light, I would be really interested in what was learned this year at Owston. Do any of you have real "wake up" moments? Things that you heard for the first time?

[al newall]

So in my mind first we have to establish a place in the venue for this speaker or that speaker to sound best.

then it occurs to me we could have our other stuff portable and briong it into that place. Whether there are two of those places or just one. (each end or the entrance end, which I suspect may be the best end).

People with boatanchors to bring them on their hostess trolleys or sack barrows. Wheel them in, connect up and away you go.

Same for your sources etc.

Instead of going round the room during the day.

I agree Paul.
I've long thought that this sort of format would tell us more about the stuff on show.
Also its a simple thing to try.

[Paul Barker]

In this light, I would be really interested in what was learned this year at Owston. Do any of you have real "wake up" moments? Things that you heard for the first time?

For me there were so many room acoustic problems I can't state which is best way to go of very much at all.

In our own rooms we hear our own improvements, but as you say the DAC we like is possibly because that dac handles a failure we have somewhere like the tweeter and so on.

against the poor sound quality of the environment and the unsuitability of all our speakers to the environment (some may disagree), I can't.

[rowuk]

In this light, I would be really interested in what was learned this year at Owston. Do any of you have real "wake up" moments? Things that you heard for the first time?

For me there were so many room acoustic problems I can't state which is best way to go of very much at all.

In our own rooms we hear our own improvements, but as you say the DAC we like is possibly because that dac handles a failure we have somewhere like the tweeter and so on.

against the poor sound quality of the environment and the unsuitability of all our speakers to the environment (some may disagree), I can't.

Just imagine if someone had a notebook computer running ARTA, a decent ADC and test microphone and documented the good and the bad. After measuring 10 systems, trends develop. I mention Arta because it is free and does FFT. You can get the frequency response without room effects and with in the same software. Then first day and second day sound could be compared.

Just imagine if there was a system on a trolly and the differences in room positioning were compared for an hour or two. Just imagine if questionnaires were filled out about what the different systems sounded like. The data measured could be compared to the gut level feelings of the audience. I think that empty opinions would be less if everyone knew that there was actual measurement data for what they were listening to. Granted, there is plenty of room for interpretation, but every step towards method removes variables.

From what I read about the kit on display, it should have been possible to demonstrate reference "big" as well as "intimate".

A list of "cool stuff" to think about:
Phase alignment of speakers - audible?
Subwoofer integration: SQ vs WAF

on a well set up high efficiency reference system:
solid state vs PP valve
solid state vs SE valve
solid state vs OTL valve
what imaging means when no comprimise is necessary

On a very "intimate system" at intimate volume levels:
44.1K material played back at 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192
raw wav files vs MP3(64, 128, 320K)

for all systems:
Optimal listening distance and geometry recreation

With stuff like this, the show is already millions of times better than any trade show anywhere.

[Greg]

Hmmm, rowik, I don't agree. Getting seriously technical would take all the fun out of the weekend. The socialising is equally important to the listening and we all recognise that the sound presentation is likely to be compromised by the room and never reflect the quality of sound we have at home. Furthermore, it really is an adult version of 'show and tell'.

I've done the more intensive listening events as you have suggested and they work very well at a small fest in someone's home and actually such a venue is probably best for such an exercise. Having said that, they are no picnic. It's hard intensive listening for a long time often involving the repetitive listing to a short passage of one individual track.

Owston surely needs to remain about having fun as we celebrate our hobby. I would hate it to turn into an analysts chamber.

[Greg]

At the other end of the room, so it may be a matter of just going end to end, Steve's speakers improved. They were hopeless in the original position.

So in my mind first we have to establish a place in the venue for this speaker or that speaker to sound best.

then it occurs to me we could have our other stuff portable and briong it into that place. Whether there are two of those places or just one. (each end or the entrance end, which I suspect may be the best end).

People with boatanchors to bring them on their hostess trolleys or sack barrows. Wheel them in, connect up and away you go.

Yep, completely agree with this. It seems to me that two set ups, end to end, listened to alternatively would allow one presenter to dismantle whilst another sets up while the audience is listening at the other end. We might need to increase the number of tracks listened to but that is not a bad thing if we benefit from a good sound presentation and I feel feel sure with good management, this could be achieved within the time available before we move onto experiments in the evening.

One thought, vinyl systems can take a while to set up, but if we were to agree two systems to be set up for the day at both ends of the room that could be shared, that would alleviate time constraint issues.

Like it Paul, but what do others think?

[Paul Barker]

Owston surely needs to remain about having fun as we celebrate our hobby. I would hate it to turn into an analysts chamber.

So true.

[Paul Barker]

One thought, vinyl systems can take a while to set up, but if we were to agree two systems to be set up for the day at both ends of the room that could be shared, that would alleviate time constraint issues.

Yes, what vinyl playback systems are usually brought are plenty good enough.