Nationalisation .

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Daniel Quinn
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#1 Nationalisation .

Post by Daniel Quinn »

As far am concerned the idea was hijacked by neo cons as a way of making money .

I can see anything against it
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pre65
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#2 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by pre65 »

To my mind nationalisation is (like communism) fine in theory but difficult to get right in practice.

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Nick
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#3 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by Nick »

I have never understood the logic that says a private company can run something and make money for its shareholders at a lower cost than being run to make money for the taxpayers (or to invest the money back into the company, or just not make a profit but provide a service).

My view is that the Thatcher government convinced the average person to buy a small percentage of something they had already owned 100% off.
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#4 Re: Nationalisation .

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pre65 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 5:24 pm To my mind nationalisation is (like communism) fine in theory but difficult to get right in practice.
Yes, but as that's true of everything, not sure what it says.
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pre65
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#5 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by pre65 »

Even though the railways are privatised the government has taken to running at least two franchises itself, so LNER and Northern are in effect nationalised.

All the other private company's have to "dance" to the governments tune with regard to how they operate, and pay for the privilege.

Also, the government has to compensate rail company's to run loss making, but socially necessary services.

It will be interesting to see how Scotland manage now they have taken rail into government control.

Perhaps a mix of government and private is what's needed ?

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andrew Ivimey
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#6 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by andrew Ivimey »

That's a very weird description of the ridiculously complicated way the rail service, which should be nationalised, is paid for by the tax paying people so the shareholders still get their bonuses...
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#7 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by Daniel Quinn »

In the 1970s , as well as relaxing financial rules , neo cons targetted nationalised industries as a way of making money .

Pre as accepted their ideology that nationalised companies are inefficient , the rest of the country also did so much so it is now received wisdom.
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pre65
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#8 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by pre65 »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:07 pm
Pre as accepted their ideology that nationalised companies are inefficient
Convince me otherwise.

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Nick
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#9 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by Nick »

pre65 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:08 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:07 pm
Pre as accepted their ideology that nationalised companies are inefficient
Convince me otherwise.

*
Privatised companies are expected to provide profit for their shareholders or owners. Therefore they have additional costs therefore they are less efficient. QED.

Though efficiency is a strange metric that is not particularly relevant. I would think quality of service and value for money. would be a better one to use in this case. Likewise reducing environmental impact would be another.
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pre65
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#10 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by pre65 »

Nick wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:29 pm
pre65 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:08 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:07 pm
Pre as accepted their ideology that nationalised companies are inefficient
Convince me otherwise.

*
Privatised companies are expected to provide profit for their shareholders or owners. Therefore they have additional costs therefore they are less efficient. QED.
Far too simplistic an answer. Must do better.

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#11 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by Daniel Quinn »

Companies are nothing but humans arranged in some structure.

There is nothing inherently efficient or inefficient about them . The fact you think there is means you’ve fallen for the ideology .
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pre65
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#12 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by pre65 »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:45 pm Companies are nothing but humans arranged in some structure.

There is nothing inherently efficient or inefficient about them .
I would take you to task on the second statement Dennis.

Company's can be efficient or inefficient from very bad to very good.

The way in which the company is managed can make the difference.

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Ray P
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#13 Re: Nationalisation .

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pre65 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:35 pm Far too simplistic an answer. Must do better.
Occam's razor?
Sorry, I couldn't resist!
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andrew Ivimey
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#14 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by andrew Ivimey »

I think it's all very sad. Nationalised industries were set up for the people. It was a socialist ideal. So they were run as essential and basic (that we all needed) industries. They were NOT supposed to make a profit, just cover the costs... so Thatcher comes along and there is obvious rich pickings. We, the people, get screwed and the capitalists cream their profits as we the people pay for breakdowns and inefficiencies just as long as the premiums are paid annually to the shareholders.

Capitalism isn't efficient natural or fair but if you are wealthy you can get really more so.

The poor don't matter.
Philosophers have only interpreted the world - the point, however, is to change it. No it isn't ... maybe we should leave it alone for a while.
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Nick
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#15 Re: Nationalisation .

Post by Nick »

There is no good or bad efficiency there is just a measure of work done for energy used. But you first need to describe what efficiency means in this context and then why it's a good thing.
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